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Speaker A: Foreign. Hey, I’m Kate Lindsey, and you’re listening to icymi, or in case you missed it, Slate’s podcast about Internet culture. And today we are joined by Rebecca Jennings. Welcome back, Rebecca.

Speaker B: Yay. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Rebecca, you know her, She’s a features writer at New York magazine who recently profiled, quote, the messiest woman on television, which is in reference to Secret lives of Mormon Wives star Taylor Frankie Paul. It was published just one day after footage of the 2023 domestic violence incident between Paul and her on again, off again boyfriend, Dakota Mortensen, was published by tmz. That is what this whole episode is gonna be about. But, Rebecca, before we get into this issue, I want to hear about how you had to handle that behind the scenes, because I. I know based on timing, that cannot be what this profile was initially supposed to be about.

Speaker B: No. What are you talking about? I wrote that in five minutes, and then we published it. Went right to the printers. So obviously, this has been in the works for months. I visited the set of the Bachelorette in November, and my original pitch for this was, why is ABC making this decision? Taylor Frankie Paul is sort of the opposite of the stereotypical Bachelor contestant. She has three children from two different fathers. She has a previous domestic violence charge. She is, you know, famously Mormon, which is like, sort of like, in theory, sort of narrow her options. But she’s also kind of known for being really messy and is most of all, she’s a professional influencer. And for the on the Bachelor, that is something that they’ve really tried to avoid. Not that successfully, but, you know, over 20 years, that show has sort of thought of itself as casting these relatable every women type people that are like dental hygienists and call themselves like daddy’s girls and like that like, down home, middle America stuff. Taylor Frankie Paul is not that at all. And so that was the original pitch for the profile. But obviously in the last week and especially the last day before it went up, it radically changed in tone.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know what you’re saying is true. Like, there’s so much talk about on a lot of reality shows, but the Bachelorette, like, you know, you need to be there for the right reasons, even though everyone there knows that they’re gonna leave this with at least like, some type of, I don’t know, like, gummy brand deal. Yeah, yeah. But so how. I just am curious. Like, how did you go about it Sounds like you already had a little bit of that question in your head, like, why did they make this Decision. And so when this news broke, how did. Did that change your story?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, we. There was a lot that. Well, I mean, part of it, honestly, was, like, I really liked her, like, in person. I really enjoyed getting to know her. But I think when something like this happens, you have to be careful so that you’re not almost, like, doing, like, reputation management on behalf of someone whose, like, situation is still unfolding. Like, you don’t want to come across as insensitive or just, like, you’ve been played a little bit or that, like, you’re trying to shape this narrative on behalf of publicists or something like that. Like, it’s just a really fine line to walk. And so obviously, we had to include all of, like, the new updates, but there was also, like, some lighter stuff that. That didn’t make it in there because it just felt tonally wrong.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that. That happens with things like this, you know, But I also, like. You know, what I hope still came through was the fact that when I met her during. When she was filming the Bachelorette, she was, like, in such great spirits. All the producers were like, oh, my God, she’s so fun to work with. And, like, I believe them. Like, I don’t. Like, they were saying this to me, like, not so that I would print it. It was just like, oh, yeah, she’s so. She’s such a pro. Like, she’s so fun to work with. And I saw that in person. Then in. When I saw her, when I interviewed her again in Salt Lake City in February, she had been done with the Bachelorette for, like, two months, and she was very clearly in, like, a dark place.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And she talked about that and how, like, going from this space where she had all these people around her and, like, almost like she was the child. She said that to me. She was like, I felt like I was the kid. Like, her kids were safe. They were being taken care of by other people. All she had to worry about was filming the show and finding love. And. And then the transition back home was really, really tough for her. And then a week after we spoke, she was involved, allegedly, in another domestic violence incident.

Speaker A: Right. That is a domestic violence incident that is separate from the 2023 video that came out shortly after that news broke. The fallout from the video was swift. Her season of the Bachelorette was pulled. She temporarily lost custody of the child that she and Dakota share. And now even the future of the Secret lives of Mormon wives is also uncertain. When we come back, why everyone saw this coming and also why Taylor Frankie Paul should never have been our Bachelorette in the first place. And we’re back. And I want to start by talking about how the public came to know Taylor, Frankie Paul, and how we then got to the place of her being Bachelorette. Because this is not how the Bachelor franchise normally does things. They do not normally pull the sort of Bachelor Bachelorette from other universes. Like you kind of alluded above, they’re either unknowns or they’re pulled from like a pre existing Bachelor cast. So the reason Taylor, Frankie Paula ended up there, I mean, there’s, there’s many you can point to. One is she was first very popular on TikTok. She broke that swinging Mormon mom story. She is sort of referred to as the de facto leader of Mom Talk, um, and of the show. She has significantly more followers than all of the other women. Um, so she has like an allure to her all on her own. But like importantly, both Hulu, which is where Secret Lives of Mormon Wives drops, and abc, which were the Bachelors aired, are owned by Disney. And so this was also a really effective sort of cross pollination move. And because of her fame in this space, both in this space and online, in that sense, she’s a natural choice. But maybe Rebecca, as someone who actually met and spoke in depth with her, what is it that makes Taylor such a compelling protagonist?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, when I talked to the showrunner for the Bachelor, he was talking about how he watched the pilot of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and he was like, oh, my God, this is the most honest woman I’ve ever seen on reality tv. And I think that’s why she has had so many fans over the years. Don’t Forget, like, in 2022, the reason she blew up in the first place was because she went on TikTok live and was like, yeah, me and my husband are getting divorced was because we were swinging with a bunch of other couples and now we’re all getting divorced and, you know, and like, just like letting it fly in that you don’t often see from professional influencers or professional reality TV stars in the 2000s when people are much more careful about how they present themselves. But Taylor’s not like that. Even today on Call Her Daddy, Jessie Draper, her co star, said, Taylor can’t lie. She doesn’t lie. And from what I’ve seen, it seems kind of to be true. It’s like when she’s mad, she’s mad and she says what she feels in the moment. And I think that’s very compelling on reality tv. And like you said, it’s synergy. It’s like Disney clearly is trying to beef up their reality TV programming on the Secret Lives. They’ve had multiple cast members go to Vanderpump Villa, which is also another Hulu reality show. They have them go on Dancing with the Stars, which is abc, and now the Bachelorette. And so, you know, you can see the kind of the gears moving in that way. But I think with Taylor, Frankie, Paul, this is a franchise that has had very low ratings, declining ratings over the past few years. And, you know, who better to drive ratings than someone who just kind of, like, burst onto reality tv and in, you know, in a year and a half, they’ve had four seasons of the show that’s now, like, more popular than the Kardashians. Like, they are such stars. And she really is the anchor to all of that. And so I think they kind of went the nuclear option with casting, because despite, you know, everything that was already out there, which includes basically everything that was in that video that we all saw, they chose her. And I pressed the showrunner. I was like, well, she’s really controversial, like xyz. And he was sort of just like, you know, like, that’s like, what’s that? She’s so genuine. That’s what’s relatable. And, you know, like, those kind of things that people in the business say.

Speaker A: I know I always find an excuse to bring a conversation back to Love island, but it does remind me a little bit of a criticism that Love island gets in recent years, which is that this is more so the uk that the people who are on it are too aware that they’re on the show. And so things aren’t getting as messy as people want to. And so it makes sense that someone like Taylor, who, yeah, will either, like, go on TikTok and be like, everyone here swinging, or like, even during the show, she gets on Instagram, and it’s like, no one liked my CMA’s post. And then that becomes a whole plot point for the show, like the women clearly do, even though I actually find so many other of the storylines more compelling. Taylor is so clearly, like, the center of the show, and whatever she does, mom talk follows. So that brings us to this year. The future of this Bachelorette season was actually uncertain before this video was released. I’m sure you were abreast of this because of this profile, because in February, like you mentioned, the Draper City Police opened an investigation of new domestic assault allegations. They were made by both Taylor Frankie Paul and Dakota Mortensen. And so when this happened, Secret Lives of Mormon Wives was put on pause. That’s the first news that broke that the filming was paused because of this incident. And I think a lot of people were like, okay, what’s the Bachelorette going to do? Like, that is supposed to be airing soon. And so, I mean, in many ways it was both so surprising that it was pulled, but also a little bit not at all. But you say in your profile that your conversation with. Or one of your conversations, the second conversation took place with Taylor, Frankie Paul, just days before this new investigation was opened. At that time, maybe in Taylor’s words, or what she shared with you, what was the state of their relationship?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I had asked her, you know, that’s the question she gets all the time. She’s like, how are you in Dakota? Because that’s been sort of the long running theme of the show. And I was like, well, did you save a rose for him like he asks you to do on the show before she goes to film the Bachelorette? And she’s like. She’s like unequivocally like, no, we are like, I only am resentful towards him. We are not in a good place that like, we are stuck to each other for the rest of our lives, but we are still figuring out how to even be like cordial and be co parents. And so from what I’ve read and what I know, there was no point where they got back together or anything. This was not like a lover’s quarrel. This was more of like a co parenting, really toxic, like whatever. Whatever dynamic they have.

Speaker A: Yeah. So then on March 19, the 2023 video drops on TMZ. We don’t know how TMZ got it. There’s been a lot of speculation about that, but all we know is that gets published. Like you said, this was. This incident was not a secret. I knew of it. Anyone who was interested in this knew of it. But watching the video, I’ll say for myself, I had to stop halfway through. And we’re not gonna play it on the episode in case anyone’s worried. It is quite upsetting. What was your reaction to it?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s horrific. And I think you can read. I mean, this is the same thing with anything. You can read as much as you want about something that happened, but seeing it is completely different. And I think that even though the narrative on the show had long been like, she served her time. I mean, she was probation for three years. It wasn’t like, time. And that she was very sorry. She’s called it the worst night of her life. She hasn’t had a drink since then. But I think seeing it just completely opens up everything all over again. No one except the two of them were there. And seeing it in person is a completely. It’s hard to look at someone the same way when you’ve seen them in that state. And so I think that hours later, ABC canceled the Bachelorette. And so I think, like, that is all there is to say about that, Right?

Speaker A: Yeah. For those who haven’t seen it or don’t want to actually watch it, the video basically details, like, you said, a lot of what is in this initial report, which is Taylor, Frankie, Paul is hitting Dakota. And then towards the end, she starts throwing these metal bar stools. And while she’s doing that, you hear her child, one of her children, starts screaming. This is where I had to tap out. But I think hearing what the scene was actually like and the fact, like, really seeing what it was that that child was in the middle of, I think, yeah, made it hit home. And so, yes, ABC announced, like, so swiftly after they’re pulling the season. And like we said, for some people, this was a shocking move, and it is a huge move. But for context, like, they included this whole situation in the first season. It was literally the cliffhanger of the pilot. And so pausing for this, I don’t know, you start to get the sense of, like, okay, something’s really happening. So, yeah, Bachelorette season is pulled. It already was filmed, so it’s technically already all there.

Speaker B: You witnessed some of it, and I saw the premiere episode, which maybe no one will ever see.

Speaker A: Oh, my God. Okay, I have so many questions for you, then. So you got to be on set. You got to see the premiere episode. What are some of the things that you witnessed on set, and did you get any clues either from that or from seeing the premiere as to what this season kind of would have been like? Is there, like, a narrative they were setting up or anything like that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think you can see it in all the advertisements, even for this, that were, like, around. I see them around New York all the time. It’s like, I don’t fit the mold. Like, they’re really leaning into the fact that, like, this. She was a very bold choice for them. You said in the premiere, too. I mean, when I was on set, it was basically like being on the set of a TV show. Like, any. Like, it’s just like, a lot. Like, a lot really kind of awkward and long shooting breaks and just, like, things are just like, they had, like, all these. I was at Chippendales and all these guys. They’re really hot guys. I will say in person, I’m like, I could not believe, like, everyone was so tall and gorgeous. So that’s also kind of a bummer that those poor wannabe influencers are not getting their time to shine. No, but in the premiere episode, I saw a rough cut of it, like, a month before it was supposed to air. And, I mean, you definitely get the sense that they were going to talk about this stuff. Like, there’s an extended trailer at the end of it. Often when you see the premiere of a show, of a season of a show, it’ll do the big trailer for what’s coming in the. The season. And I’ve never seen any of that footage anywhere else. It’s like she and one of the men are having a talk about this night, and it’s really tearful and looks really dramatic. There’s also been reports I didn’t see the footage of this, but that she walked off of one date where that subject came up. So, I mean, clearly, it was like conversations about it were happening on the set of the Bachelorette. And even the first night, you know, she’s. Because she’s not drinking right now. Like, all the other men are drinking, and she’s just like, I’m just having apple juice.

Speaker A: Like, I was gonna say, did they get, like, swig the dirty soda for her?

Speaker B: I think there was supposed to be. Or I know there was going to be an episode with a soda brand that I will not name. I think you might know which one.

Speaker A: Gosh. Like, all this. This is like. That’s the juicy stuff. I’m like, we’re gonna do soda things. All right. Yeah, but.

Speaker B: But.

Speaker A: So, okay. It’s interesting that they don’t shy away from it, because there’s a point of this that I want to linger on a bit, which is that this footage, in terms of what it shows, isn’t new information. This has been something that the TV audience has known about since we met her. Like we said, it’s sort of the cliffhanger Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, the pilot episode. And everything that we see in the video is pretty much already documented in a publicly available police report. I will talk about the network’s role in this later, but I think a question I have, and this is something that was actually brought up by an Icymi follower on Instagram who DMed us, so thank you for this thoughtful question about why was this incident something as viewers that we were really easily able to overlook for four seasons until now, just in your sort of experience?

Speaker B: I mean, I think the fact that it did show up on the end of the pilot episode of Mormon Wives, you see Taylor, Frankie, Paul being put in handcuffs, drunk, like, being later charged with domestic violence. But I think when you see a relationship as volatile as her and Dakota’s and. And you start to wonder like, well, what actually, like, there’s like, no one saw what happened. I think it’s one of those things that happen in intimate relationships where it’s like, it’s very hard to, like, no one, no one knows what happens in normal relationships either, besides the people that are in them. And, and I think that she was, she and Dakota were probably given a lot of grace, maybe some of it, you know, earned, some of it maybe not earned because it’s impossible to know. Like, and I think that a lot of people had empathy for her or sympathy for her because maybe they’d been in situations like that themselves. And, you know, one like drunken outburst obviously does not define a person’s life. But I also think that, like, they, many people, I’m sure, were thinking, like, well, what did Dakota do to get her to that point? And whether that’s fair or not, I can’t say. But, like, there’s definitely a lot of discussion whether him allegedly, maybe releasing these videos to TMZ was also an act of, you know, spite to try to ruin her career. There’s. She has also accused him of being abusive as well. And so I think for a lot of viewers, that’s more complicated than just like, just because someone was involved in an incident of DV does not necessarily make them Persona non grata on their televisions.

Speaker A: We’ll be back with more of our conversation with Rebecca after this quick break. Hey there. If you love our podcasts, then maybe you should consider subscribing to Slate plus to immediately unlock bonus episodes like the one that lucky subscribers have in their feeds right now. Producer Vic and I dive into the next book in our book club, Jennette McCurdy’s half his age. Plus you’ll get ad free listening across all your favorite Slate podcasts, including bi weekly bonus episodes of our show. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts by clicking Try Free at the top of our show page or. Or visit slate.com icymyplus to get access wherever you listen. Like you said, this video is actually part of, like, a much larger story and so I will go through that. And I agree as well that there was perhaps like a rose colored glasses. Kind of feels like the wrong word to use. But I think, you know, you see the cliffhanger, you see her getting arrested and we don’t. You could go technically and go look at the police report. But I think a combination of like not really wanting to look further, probably a little bit of bias because this is a dynamic that we don’t see as often in terms of, you know, abuse against men by women, I think made it easier for me to be like, well, I think like what I literally had in my head until this moment was like, I think it was just like a loud argument and someone else was called. But I also think another reason why I was like, I don’t think this could have been as huge as it ended up being is because Hulu moved forward. They continued to keep her as the star. And so I think all those data points made me be like, well, surely they wouldn’t move forward with someone who did what I then we then saw in that video. And so I think it was a lot of just like ignorance is bliss a little bit. And also, like you mentioned the showrunner saying Taylor is so honest. And it became her owning that and moving on from that became a really big part of her story. And then she was a. Her character is kind of a mess who makes mistakes. And we also see her in the show in the context of a lot of other stressful factors. Like we have a clip because her family. Yeah, her family. We’ll just. So this is a clip of Taylor and her family where Taylor is really trying to move on from Dakota. And you can see that the one of the barriers to that is her own parents.

Speaker C: I’m trash to him. You come over the next night, f*** me, and then you go and you hang out with another girl. And then he comes the next night and f**** me again.

Speaker D: Well, okay, okay, okay.

Speaker C: I wasn’t lying to you about someone else.

Speaker D: Here’s the thing. I’m going to be blunt, freaking honest. He just told me that you guys, guys had seen each other three times before, I don’t know, before all this. And then you’re sitting there telling me that he came over and had sex with you. What does that say about you? I’m not, I’m not pointing finger, you guys.

Speaker C: That’s what I’m saying. I was trash.

Speaker D: No, I’m not trash. You’re not leaving.

Speaker C: No self respect. I hate me.

Speaker D: What I’m saying. Let me finish.

Speaker C: I was at my lowest.

Speaker D: Let me finish.

Speaker C: You guys both had so much baggage because I know, I know I didn’t have self respect. It doesn’t change that when you lie, you go hook up with another girl while you’re apologizing.

Speaker A: I remember I watched that in real time when that season came out and truly like, f*** that. Like that.

Speaker B: No, I know. It’s like disgusting.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that’s her father. Like, it’s her stepfather, but it’s like that’s the father she was raised with. Like, how horrible.

Speaker A: Yeah. And so I think that makes me immediately also be protective of this person because I’m like, okay, well, that’s an insane thing to say to. You’re like essentially your daughter. Like, I mean. And so we were privy to the fact that this was a very complicated situation. And I think when it comes to both the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and I imagine the Bachelorette, they did know all of this. And that is why they wanted to make her the star of the show, both of the Bachelorette, and continue with Secret Lives of Mormon Wives because Taylor and Dakota’s super volatile relationship was good for ratings. And it was so much of Taylor’s story on the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and it was carried with her onto the Bachelorette. You know, they are already bound together because they do share a child. Taylor Frankie Paul has two children with her ex husband, but she and Dakota also share a child. And so they are bound together by co parenting. Now, as people who are on the show, they’re essentially also bound together by being colleagues. And we know that often storylines are manipulated or encouraged. And so I don’t think it is crazy to say that some of their interactions are due to the show wanting to put them on screen. As we heard a little bit in that clip, he sleeps with people in her circle. So he always, even when he’s like doing things without her, he stays close. Close. None of her friends like him. Notably, they all hate him. And we know who some of these friends are married to and what they put up with. But, like, they hate this man. And they also talk about his propensity to sort of sabotage these important moments for Taylor, like sleeping with her basically the day before she goes to be the Bachelorette. And I will also note that as these allegations are coming out, Mortensen recently filed an additional. A third allegation of domestic violence. This was for an incident in 2024. And so I’m just pointing out that to acknowledge that, like, from at least 2023 onward, like this has been a ongoing toxic relationship. And so I think this is why, like you kind of mentioned earlier, the video comes out. And I don’t think people’s takeaway is as black and white as you would maybe think if you saw that in a vacuum, because we have had access to all these seasons to see how complicated this situation and toxic this relationship is. You know, you also mentioned, like, Taylor, Frankie Paul has alleged mutual abuse. Like, even in what we see in the pilot, she says that, like, he pushed her first. She mentions, like, an altercation in the garage. All we know is what happened in that recording and then what is shown to us on the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. We do not know what happened right before that recording or after.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that is something a lot of people are pointing to when they are speaking in defense of Taylor. Sort of. This might be something that’s called reactive abuse, which is, like, it might have been instigated. It might have. But at the same time, because we don’t see what happened before, we can’t confidently say that either. And so it is really hard to talk about this because I don’t want to go in on a smear campaign against one woman. But I also want to be realistic about what we saw, which is this was horrifying. It happened in front of a child. And from the video and claims made in the police report, that child was potentially hit by one of the stools that Taylor was throwing at Dakota. Although Taylor has denied this. It’s just unequivocally bad. But, like, me saying that she shouldn’t have been the bachelorette and that this was a bad thing isn’t me saying, you know, justice for Dakota. I think this is about the kid. That a kid was involved in this. What I heard from the kid, that is, like, disqualifying that she should not be Bachelorette for that.

Speaker B: Yeah, it’s. It was pretty horrific. And, like, I remember, you know, I had obviously read the reports of, like, the police report, and she was accused of child abuse, like, in. In that original police report, and she pled guilty to the domestic violence charge in exchange for, like, getting me all. All the other charges dropped. But, like, that was. And police obviously have this video. The women of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives had seen that video, I think. I think more recently. But people were aware that this video existed. And the fact that producers didn’t do any more digging into that is, I think, a failure.

Speaker A: No, I agree, because that is. I think where I land is we are not gonna know the truth of this situation in terms of the full scope, and it’s kind of fruitless to be navigating like it’s something between. That’s like they should navigate privately. But I want to focus on the companies in the production that knew about this because I think this is why, in my opinion, Tyler, Frankie Paul never should have been made Bachelorette in the first place. I mean, so when we talk about possible producer manipulation, we don’t know exactly what happens behind the scenes on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. But I will read a quote from writer Kat Ten Barge, who comes on the show quite frequently. She wrote on Spitfire News about this and I just want to read this quote. The reality TV industry isn’t casting people in abusive relationships by accident. Exploiting abuse on screen is a pillar of this genre. Typically through a misogynistic lens that endangers women and children. Most of all, there is an incentive to keep abusive dynamics in place, extending the lifespan of volatile relationships and the overexposed exposure of people going through mental health crises and issues like substance abuse. The way these shows and their audiences tend to talk about women at their lowest points is malicious and misogynistic, turning them into maligned characters and then acting shocked when the spectacle they created has violent real life consequences. And this is more broadly, this isn’t specifically about Secret Lives and Mormon Wives. But I’m curious for your take on, like, the producer’s role in this.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think one, you know, really important example of that was reported by NBC News, which was that, so after the domestic violence charge that occurred in, like late February of this year, filming stopped on the Mormon Wives Season 5. And then around that time, the women of Mom Talk, like, the cast of that show met with Disney and Hulu producers to say, like, hey, like, we feel uncomfortable. Like, we kind of know a little bit more about this. Like, maybe they had seen the video. I don’t know. Like, they clearly had the sense that something was coming. They were uncomfortable filming with Taylor. They were like, this is going to be bad for our show, for our brand, for our careers. And they have a recording of the head of, like, reality at Disney saying, like, I don’t want to know about this. Like, don’t tell me this. Like, I don’t want to know too much. And I think that really just like, I mean, it’s like all they really want to do is like, not be liable for something like this. And this is exactly what happens when you stick your head in the sand. It’s like they want to say, like, we had no idea. But it’s like, we. Everyone knows this was in the pilot of the show that she’s famous for. Like, this is not new information. It’s just new framing of it and new sort of evidence about it. And, yeah, I completely agree with Kat’s take about how exploitative it can be. I think there’s also, like, Back to Love island, actually.

Speaker A: It’s like, oh, I’d love to go back there.

Speaker B: It’s a much better place right now. But, like, the conversations about Hooda, there was also reports of her being involved in an altercation recently with a partner and how, like, reality TV tends to cast women that are, like, maybe in unstable places and, like, use them for drama and stuff. And I think it’s interesting how both reality TV has evolved and how audiences have evolved with things like that. I think audiences are much less likely now to sign off on very visible instances of domestic violence, alcoholism, even, like, really toxic relationships. Like, you see it even in relationship dynamics that play out on reality TV that aren’t necessarily abusive. Like, even on Summer House, Kyle and Amanda, like, you just see their sort of, like, bitterness fester. And I think, you know, and they. They recently announced that they are divorcing. But even before that, people were like, I don’t want to see this anymore. This is too dark. And I think there’s such a question right now about what is too dark and for reality TV and what is fun and messy. And I think abc, Hulu, Disney have really missed the mark on this one. Like, and I. And I just think it’s something that producers, I hope, learn from.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I’m really stuck on the. The quote you mentioned of, like, I don’t want to know this because it affirms the sort of perspective or what I take away from how this went down was it seems very much like. And I’m curious what your thoughts are, but, like, the only reason now that this season was canceled is because this video came out and it makes them look bad to move on. They cannot get away with this sort of glossing over anymore. And what feels and what I am comfortable saying is unfair to Taylor, Frankie, Paul, is that all of these abc, Hulu wanted to work with her because she is this volatile and she’s this honest or whatever this was. All these things that we now see are abuse were working in their favor in terms of having a exciting protagonist. And that was knowledge they had throughout filming the Bachelorette, all the way leading up to releasing it, and to now drop her and throw her under the bus. As if, like, this is news to you, I find so s*****. It’s just very transparent, in my opinion, why this decision was made when it was made, which is more so now. It makes them look bad, but they didn’t really seem to care before when it made their protagonist look bad. But I’m curious about why you think now is the time.

Speaker B: I mean, yeah, I’m assuming this also had to do with, like, brand safety advertisers. Yes.

Speaker A: All right. Cinnabon pulled out.

Speaker B: Yes. Cinnabon, like, now no longer works with Taylor. Frankie Paul. I’m sure there’s. She’s. That’s one of many. But, like. But yeah. And abc, which is owned by Disney, which is like the kind of, like, mecca of brand safety, like, cannot be associated with someone who’s, you know, who has a video like this. But, like. But again, this stuff was already out there. Like, this is. This is just, like, willful ignorance on the part. Like, sort of, like, it’s proven to be willful ignorance. So, you know, from that conversation where it’s like, producers just, like, actually do not want to know because they don’t want to be liable for that. And so now they can blame this on. Well, like, we didn’t know that the video was going to get out. Like, they could have dug a little bit about that. Like, they absolutely could have.

Speaker A: Yeah. And what’s kind of annoying, although it hasn’t ever gone down quite like this, but, like, this kind of thing is not necessarily unprecedented in Bachelor Nation. Like, for a show that is so, like, obsessed with brand friendliness and, like, it’s very. For those who haven’t seen it, necessarily, it is like such an American show. Like, it’s very much like, Midwest, like, vibes. Don’t ask me to explain what I mean by that.

Speaker B: I get it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like. And so. But that’s not to say there were. No, there weren’t things happening that they then had to, like, account for. I mean, a lot of people are saying about this tale of Frankie Paul thing is, you know, imagine if the roles were reversed. ABC would have never let this happen. But, like, we don’t have to imagine because a former bachelor was accused of, you know, stalking and harassment. Granted, this was after the season aired. This is Colton Underwood who we’re talking about. But he went on to be on the Traitors and, like, have a different reality show. Like, he had no consequences. And I’m. I mean, back in 2017, when I was covering entertainment, I remember writing about the Bachelor in Paradise incident. I don’t know if you were following or a fan during this, where there was filming between two really drunk contestants on Bachelor in Paradise where they were in a hot tub or a pool and they had sex, but they were overly intoxicated. The lines of consent were very blurred. They halted filming for that correctly, so. Because I think one and then ultimately two producers filed complaints. But once filming resumed, it was all about. There was so much s*** shaming within the show and then even in the reunion, so much covering their a** of, like, making everyone say, like, though it was fine, it was fine. Again, like, Brand seems to come first. And yeah, of course, this just feels like part of that pattern. But, you know, I’m wondering, just as we sort of end this conversation, especially because you’ve spoken to Taylor, then this comes out. There’s a lot in question right now, like not only if the Bachelorette as a entity is gonna continue, but also Secret lives of Mormon Wives. What do you. Where do you land on Taylor and her in her future in this?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, from what she’s told me, she was like. She basically said she was the closest to quitting she had ever been because she was just so overwhelmed with it all. And so I really. What I hope for her is that she gets time away from the cameras and from this constant filming. And I think what Secret Lives does differently than other reality shows is that it films multiple times a year. So they are essentially always in either a cycle of filming or doing publicity for the season that recently just came out. And so there is really zero breaks on something like Housewives. You film for, I think about like three months, then nine months go by, then you’re doing a little publicity and then you start filming again. They don’t get those, like, nine months of a break, like, ever. And so I think. And for all this to happen so fast, I think was just really, really hard on her and probably all of them. And yeah, that’s really all I want is for is for her to sort of like, heal in peace and learn how to sort of be a normal human again and try to figure out a way that they can co parent in a way that’s just not completely destructive.

Speaker A: That’s where I land too. And that’s also why I say ABC should never have cast her. Not because Taylor, Frankie, Paul doesn’t deserve to find love, but because there is clearly a lot of healing that needs to be done, which we have beaten over and over again, they were aware of. And all this has done is forced that to happen out in the open or forced the consequences of that to happen out in the open, which is harmful for everyone involved, including the kids. Whereas, you know, had this not. This was always going to play out, but now, now Taylor is doing it with paparazzi and that helps no one.

Speaker B: I know. It’s just like, it’s so dark for me to watch. And I, as much as I’m horrified by what I’ve seen, I also just really hope for the best for, for everyone involved, including the children.

Speaker A: Okay, that’s the show. Thank you so much to Rebecca for joining us. We’ll be back in your feed on Wednesday, so definitely subscribe. That way you never miss an episode. Leave us a rating and a review in Apple or Spotify and tell your friends about us. To see all the visuals referenced in today’s episode, you can follow us on Instagram @ICYMYPOD and you can always drop us a note@ICYMILATE.com ICYMI is produced by Vic Whitley Berry and me, Kate Lindsay. Daisy Rosario is our senior supervising producer. Mia Lobel is Slate’s executive producer of podcasts. And Hilary Fry is Slate’s editor in chief. See you online or not.

Speaker B: Thanks to me.

Speaker C: Did you hear. Did you hear that meow, Vic?

Speaker A: He’s like, yeah, we gotta keep the meow.